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Post by malice on May 13, 2014 3:32:13 GMT
maliceIt hasn't worked to the best of it's ability though. Like I said, I remember last draft there were 10 guys sitting online waiting to see if they would have time to draft before bed or are they getting hit with the list. And don't act like a jackass, obviously every 7am is different. We start it at one time zone, adjust it to everyone else's time zone and move forward. For example Pick 1: 7am ET, 4am PT, etc etc.....I know there are multiple continents in this league it was an example you took way too literal. Also don't shoot down the idea because you don't like it, a bunch of managers already hit me up saying it was a good idea and some even liked the post. Be open to discussion of change Err... don't act like a jackass? Pull your head in fella. Make commentary like that and be prepared for a lil' angst thrown back your way. I'm not the guy offering up a completely arbitrary "7am to midnight", and then making no qualifications whatsoever as to what that actually means. REALITY: in this situation, there IS NO SEVEN AM TO MIDNIGHT FOR EVERYONE! Even in your country alone that doesn't exist in this frame of reference as far as having meaning for everyone! Ah. So I'm not allowed to offer my opinion, merely because it doesn't fit in with yours? Screw that. So some others like it... therefore any problems pointed out about it are all null and void? How nice. Your retorts to the problems I have raised about it have been merely a blithe "yeah-but-this-is-a-good-idea-someone-told-me-so". How about YOU be open to the possibility that it isn't a functional suggestion? You've become increasingly dismissive on this, I raised issues I saw with a suggestion - now you're taking the stance that I simply don't like it. Completely false,- I simply see problems there. You want universal acquiescence? Then address the issues raised:1. Your assertions of "7am to midnight" being a solution to *when* are irrelevant given we all live in different parts of the world. Each team would get an arbitrarily set 20 minute window. If you can't make it - tough. Have a list or get auto'd. Regardless of where you live - if that 20 minute window doesn't fit in, bad luck. 2. People largely don't submit lists. That understood, there'll be a significant amount of GMs who will be auto'd. 20 minutes is too small a window for someone to become available. This is not the NBA. This is not a job. If it were, fine: you could expect people to be able to attend a time as set out by their position in the draft. |
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Post by gotmelk0490 on May 13, 2014 4:27:06 GMT
So in short....you'd rather have zero idea where your pick is and have to keep checking the league during your job/school/hobbies etc rather than knowing the exact time you need to be online?
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itnas123
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Post by itnas123 on May 13, 2014 4:43:05 GMT
maliceIt hasn't worked to the best of it's ability though. Like I said, I remember last draft there were 10 guys sitting online waiting to see if they would have time to draft before bed or are they getting hit with the list. And don't act like a jackass, obviously every 7am is different. We start it at one time zone, adjust it to everyone else's time zone and move forward. For example Pick 1: 7am ET, 4am PT, etc etc.....I know there are multiple continents in this league it was an example you took way too literal. Also don't shoot down the idea because you don't like it, a bunch of managers already hit me up saying it was a good idea and some even liked the post. Be open to discussion of change You want universal acquiescence? Then address the issues raised:1. Your assertions of "7am to midnight" being a solution to *when* are irrelevant given we all live in different parts of the world. Each team would get an arbitrarily set 20 minute window. If you can't make it - tough. Have a list or get auto'd. Regardless of where you live - if that 20 minute window doesn't fit in, bad luck. 2. People largely don't submit lists. That understood, there'll be a significant amount of GMs who will be auto'd. 20 minutes is too small a window for someone to become available. This is not the NBA. This is not a job. If it were, fine: you could expect people to be able to attend a time as set out by their position in the draft. 1. Time Zones so if your time is out of the 7 to midnight time then it will placed differently based on where you live, and second also the clock should be in my opinion 30 or 35 minutes per pick. malice |
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Post by malice on May 13, 2014 8:59:57 GMT
At least this is an attempt to address concerns... The thing about placing a short, immovable time window for the draft pick is that there's no way you're going to create a satisfactory time for all concerned - 20 min, 35 min - it's not a whole lot of difference, to be honest - and it's a massive change to the way we've done it thus far. Additionally, having only 20-30 minutes per pick is going to make it quite a task for whoever is running the draft. I'd like someone from the pro hey-let's-change-the-draft-process side to outline what's wrong with the current situation. |
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Post by malice on May 13, 2014 9:06:02 GMT
So in short....you'd rather have zero idea where your pick is and have to keep checking the league during your job/school/hobbies etc rather than knowing the exact time you need to be online? You just don't get it, do you? This isn't about *me*. I've put in a list for every draft thus far - except for the last one (only had a late 2nd round pick), and in all likelihood I'll be fine for this coming one. But I also *know* that there will be GMs who won't put lists in, who will miss whatever time their window is, and who will be pissed off because the period in which they have to make their pick is so very short. You absolutely do NOT have to "keep checking the league" (and quite frankly, I doubt you've found yourself in that position) as a GM has a longer time to make the pick. Sure, you might miss the immediate minutes after the previous GM has made their pick, but you have a significant period of time post that to choose. "...knowing the exact time you need to be online..." oh to be free of responsibilities so that I could unequivocally guarantee I could be online for an arbitrarily set time... And "zero idea"... ? You like to play with absolutes, huh. Even if they're incorrect. |
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Post by somerandomguy on May 13, 2014 10:52:34 GMT
if people don't submit list, it's their problem not the leagues, just like if someone doesn't put in a FA offer or doesn't do their DC at critical times. The league doesn't get hurt by that unless it's happening with multiple people.
In theory, more people should be submitting list, because they can see a time go "hey I can't make it at that time, so I will send a list". While if you can make it then your there and you make your pick. That's theory though and people have their reasons for not sending in list. But no matter what sort of "drafting style" you do, people won't send list. There's usually a small amount of people that do send list a majority of the time and a large chunk of people that don't.
I also don't see the problem with the no list argument if done correctly, if you say the draft starts at say 5 pm est, and give a day or so for people to send in list you can get through the lottery by 12 pm est. Usually the loto is the thing people send list for since that's typically where the top players come from, usually, you don't see contenders sending list unless it's a deep draft. Yes 5 pm est is a different time for everyone, that's why you send a list if your going to be sleeping/at work/etc during that time and you would have time to do that.
The organization is what matters and I don't see the point in arguing against list when there's people that don't send list anyways and drafts sometimes get autoed at 4 am est to 9 pm est anyways and it's a bad time if your in America.
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Post by malice on May 13, 2014 12:40:54 GMT
if people don't submit list, it's their problem not the leagues, just like if someone doesn't put in a FA offer or doesn't do their DC at critical times. The league doesn't get hurt by that unless it's happening with multiple people. In theory, more people should be submitting list, because they can see a time go "hey I can't make it at that time, so I will send a list". Ah. So your answer is to make the period of time shorter, and lock it in? That doesn't make a whole lotta sense. I'd be all for this if we had a very large percentage of GMs submitting draft lists - but we don't. I see it as my role to argue for ALL GMs, not just those that voice their opinions in this thread. Sorry SRG... this: actually not bad, this is how it's done in the NBA as well ... doesn't matter. The reality of the league is that we have a load of different people, doing different things, at different times. People - including commissioners - get busy at times, and everyone's fine with that. We're just a bunch of regular guys - who sometimes get busy unexpectedly. I think it's unfair to place further strictures on the draft when there's no such thing elsewhere in the league. Stuff gets busy: we should have a bit of flexibility about it. The organization is what matters and I don't see the point in arguing against list when there's people that don't send list anyways and drafts sometimes get autoed at 4 am est to 9 pm est anyways and it's a bad time if your in America. There's a pretty big difference between telling the guy who didn't get his list in "hey, you missed your slot - you had 3 (4+? Hi B Town!!) hours, and you didn't submit a list. Sorry dude, you got auto'd." or "hey, you missed your slot - you had 20 min, and you didn't submit a list. Sorry dude, you got auto'd." |
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Post by bloop on May 13, 2014 14:35:21 GMT
I think the misconception is that playoffs end and it's 30 min, you're up, then on to the next pick. No one is saying that. It would be days in advance, ideally, where a time slot is given to a person. Hell the person could even argue for a different time slot if it's that big of a deal (being optimistic here and don't know if anyone else would agree with this). I personally think the current system is flawed. It just takes way too long and is completely unpredictable. You have no idea when a person will or won't pick. If you can't submit a list in 3-4 days leading up to your time slot, that's being lazy and I don't think a lazy owner should be rewarded at the expense of the league. As SRG said, it's no different than free agency, which could even be argued has a bigger impact on most teams.
The biggest question is when is the final prospect list able to be posted (last TC wise). If it can't be done 3-4 days before the draft, then a time slot is impractical. For me, it depends on when the actual list can be posted for people to look at. If it's a day or 2 only before the draft, then the current flawed system is the best there out there.
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Post by getbeard on May 13, 2014 14:46:25 GMT
I think your missing the point that you'd have more than 20 minutes under the proposed system. You'd know when you'd have your pick so you can look at that as a deadline to put your list in. If you know when your drafting say a whole day in advance, there is no reason you shouldn't be able to recognize your availability during your draft slot and know whether or not you should make a list immediately.
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Post by gotmelk0490 on May 13, 2014 16:59:47 GMT
^ thank you
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Post by somerandomguy on May 13, 2014 18:26:11 GMT
I think the misconception is that playoffs end and it's 30 min, you're up, then on to the next pick. No one is saying that. It would be days in advance, ideally, where a time slot is given to a person. Hell the person could even argue for a different time slot if it's that big of a deal (being optimistic here and don't know if anyone else would agree with this). I personally think the current system is flawed. It just takes way too long and is completely unpredictable. You have no idea when a person will or won't pick. If you can't submit a list in 3-4 days leading up to your time slot, that's being lazy and I don't think a lazy owner should be rewarded at the expense of the league. As SRG said, it's no different than free agency, which could even be argued has a bigger impact on most teams. The biggest question is when is the final prospect list able to be posted (last TC wise). If it can't be done 3-4 days before the draft, then a time slot is impractical. For me, it depends on when the actual list can be posted for people to look at. If it's a day or 2 only before the draft, then the current flawed system is the best there out there. thanks for mentioning because that would have been my next point as for the 20 minutes or 4 hours thing, I think people would get use to it after awhile and if they did care about their pick they would send a list, that's how it's been in other leagues where the draft order is a tight 30 minutes to 1 hour. |
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shorty
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Post by shorty on May 13, 2014 18:38:22 GMT
In some seasons (like this.. and last season), the playoffs get finished in 1 day instead of split into two. I usually give people an extra day to check in or to put in votes when that happens so people still have a decent window to vote/check the thread and stuff. I think for the draft, we should extend the same courtesy to drafting imo. Always assume playoffs will take 2 days and start the draft right after the end of the playoffs.
Additional draft mods will be needed as well to help auto people who don't meet their deadlines.
We usually do our sims late, and this puts USA drafters in a disadvantage since it'll be like 12-4am here when the sims are done so some people who have school (like Btown) won't be able to make their picks live. But, they'll know that, and I would think that it'll encourage more lists to be sent in.
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Post by malice on May 13, 2014 21:11:27 GMT
I think your missing the point that you'd have more than 20 minutes under the proposed system. You'd know when you'd have your pick so you can look at that as a deadline to put your list in. If you know when your drafting say a whole day in advance, there is no reason you shouldn't be able to recognize your availability during your draft slot and know whether or not you should make a list immediately. I think you're missing the point about my entire argument: most GMs don't currently actually put lists in. Which I agree: is a problem. But the suggested change would have a greater chance of penalizing them than the system we have now. IF we instituted timetable across the board (for more than JUST the draft), then I'd understand the necessity for this. I've said my piece on this, I think all involved in this thread know my stance on it... no need to push it further. I think we should put it to a vote. Should it get the required amount to necessitate change? So be it... |
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Post by getbeard on May 13, 2014 21:15:19 GMT
I think your missing the point that you'd have more than 20 minutes under the proposed system. You'd know when you'd have your pick so you can look at that as a deadline to put your list in. If you know when your drafting say a whole day in advance, there is no reason you shouldn't be able to recognize your availability during your draft slot and know whether or not you should make a list immediately. I think you're missing the point about my entire argument: most GMs don't currently actually put lists in. Which I agree: is a problem. But the suggested change would have a greater chance of penalizing them than the system we have now. IF we instituted timetable across the board (for more than JUST the draft), then I'd understand the necessity for this. I've said my piece on this, I think all involved in this thread know my stance on it... no need to push it further. I hear what ur saying, I just think currently since there is no set times GMs think it is more acceptable to not put in a list and have an expectation we will just wait for them. If there is a defined schedule that is known to all ahead of time than it is inexcusable to not put in a list and if you don't there is no room to gripe over it because everyone is fully aware of the exact time they have to pick at the latest. Not trying too shoot down your opinion, that's what this is for, everyone should express there opinion whether others agree or not, your views are of course respected as any one else's. |
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Post by SuperMaor23 on May 14, 2014 19:32:29 GMT
Just an Idea guys. Can we have a private thread for team GMs only to discuss our CBA demands? We can all vote on a GM or two to represent us as a whole once we decide what we want changed.
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Post by malice on May 14, 2014 23:44:00 GMT
Just an Idea guys. Can we have a private thread for team GMs only to discuss our CBA demands? We can all vote on a GM or two to represent us as a whole once we decide what we want changed. This is that thread. The *discussion* that preceded was a suggestion for something to be involved on the CBA - and we discussed it's pros/cons. Once we have ideas, the President/Vice President will represent us as a whole. If you've got something you want discussed, bring it up! |
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Post by bundybastard on May 14, 2014 23:49:44 GMT
Haven't scrolled through the thread so idk whats been mentioned above, but a new CBA will need to be finalized by the ASW
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Post by malice on May 15, 2014 1:24:16 GMT
Ok. Let's get into it then. The current CBA focuses on: 1. Salary Cap: $53,135,00 (with a hard cap at 82 mil, and a floor of 20 mil). I'm fine with that, but does anyone want to discuss a change? 2. Player ContractAgain, I'm fine with that as a base, but recognise that some might want changes. I'd like to see some sort of injury provision insurance - perhaps if someone gets a significant injury (50+ days to a starter?) there could be a provision to being allowed to be above the salary cap (signing or trading for a player), for the duration of the injury. 4. Bird Years/Contract values/waivers - I see no reason to change these. 5. Trades... for the most part: fine. But I think the veto needs to be used, and I want the rules regarding "New GMs getting trades ok'd" to be part of the CBA - that protects the rest of the league from ridiculous trades occurring. 6. CY - Again... no need for change. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Thoughts? Additions? |
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Post by BrazilianDude on May 15, 2014 3:28:46 GMT
It actually is a lot more practical when you throw all the variables out there. Last draft I had to sit online for 5 hours waiting to make my pick. If I knew I had to be on within 20 minute window to make my pick, I would of time managed perfectly around it. Everyone else the same. If I couldn't be on for that exact 20 minute span but could be on 20 minutes before that, I could send a list of 2 guys. It is way better than knowing I need to go to bed with 10 picks left and not sure who to put on my list. It is a way better system in my opinion. So... if your time works out to be middle of the night - what then? And I know that people argue "sending a list" would solve all... but the same is true of the current system - and the reason some people are looking at this as a problem is that people don't send in lists... that as an expected, then having a 20 min window to pick becomes an even bigger problem: because as sure as the sun'll rise tomorrow, if people (who haven't sent in a list) get autoed and get someone they don't want - there will be complaints. Sure, the current system takes longer, but it's fair - and everyone gets ample opportunity to pick. what if gms were all responsible for a list but also had to let know in advance if they had a prior engagement. Like if your pick is at 730 but you know you cant be on till 10 that is fine with me as long as I am informed. Waiting 5 hours for someone to pick just hoping they will come online is useless if you are just going to use a list anyway. If I know you cant come on till a certain time I will have no problem waiting and be able to plan my day around knowing the draft wont progress till X hour. This way I will not be on waiting for hours hoping I do not get skipped by like 6 picks happening with in a half hour due to a high volume of people online. |
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Post by BrazilianDude on May 15, 2014 3:35:17 GMT
Also why is it that your draft spot if your non lotto isnt determined by your playoff exit. that is how it is done in the NBA if im correct. The heat may be 7th seed but they should have had the 28th or last pick in this past draft becasue they won it all. not the 15. This did not effect my team because I was 3rd best record and 3rd last pick and finished in the same pick spot i would have but this would allow us to finish the playoffs. give time to finalize the draft order ect and then start the draft.
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Post by SuperMaor23 on May 15, 2014 4:34:14 GMT
For starters, I say raise the hard cap to 85-88 Million or change the penalty, Being as how the RFA rules go, it is near impossible to build a contender with that sort of salary, The max is too much, that if you have two max players and two Full MLE contracts you are already hovering around the hard cap, this needs to be addressed ASAP, because frankly, I won't stand for the current cap/penalty with the contract situation being as it is.
I suggest and encourage an amnesty clause for one player from each team.
I request a Trade Committee to deal with every trade and whether it should pass or not, should be an uneven number with the final say being from the commissioner, say 6 Members with Bundy being the last member, meaning it takes 4 votes to veto a trade. The committee should consist of fair and impartial judgment, so we should all decide collectively who will be a part of the committee.
Team Relocation should be an option, but with a limit, for example, I relocate to Mexico City, I must agree to sign a lease for a certain number of seasons before I Go somewhere else.
Finally, regarding my first issue, If the hard cap is not raised we need to fix the way the contracts work, I think its ridiculous that I had to pay Marc Gasol a max contract or risk losing him, and his rights to free agency. We should have a 1-3 Day period for resigning with negotiations. Have each team GM message a moderator/agent/commish to determine the contract, I have done this in many sim leagues and this was a fun and great process. (Example: Gasol requests max, I reply with reasons why I believe he deserves the contract I am offering, It is up to the agent to determine whether the player will accept, negotiate or decline the offer.) If no resolution is reached, the player then becomes a Restricted Free Agent where the previous team owns his rights (this happens after the rookie contract). Where said team can match any offer if they so choose, (Example, Gasol and Wolves havent come to an agreement, So team lets him explore free agency, he signs an offer sheet with Team B for 5 years 60 Million, It is then on the Wolves to decide to match, or to release his rights so he may sign the contract.)
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Post by BrazilianDude on May 15, 2014 4:53:46 GMT
For starters, I say raise the hard cap to 85-88 Million or change the penalty, Being as how the RFA rules go, it is near impossible to build a contender with that sort of salary, The max is too much, that if you have two max players and two Full MLE contracts you are already hovering around the hard cap, this needs to be addressed ASAP, because frankly, I won't stand for the current cap/penalty with the contract situation being as it is. I suggest and encourage an amnesty clause for one player from each team. I request a Trade Committee to deal with every trade and whether it should pass or not, should be an uneven number with the final say being from the commissioner, say 6 Members with Bundy being the last member, meaning it takes 4 votes to veto a trade. The committee should consist of fair and impartial judgment, so we should all decide collectively who will be a part of the committee. Team Relocation should be an option, but with a limit, for example, I relocate to Mexico City, I must agree to sign a lease for a certain number of seasons before I Go somewhere else. Finally, regarding my first issue, If the hard cap is not raised we need to fix the way the contracts work, I think its ridiculous that I had to pay Marc Gasol a max contract or risk losing him, and his rights to free agency. We should have a 1-3 Day period for resigning with negotiations. Have each team GM message a moderator/agent/commish to determine the contract, I have done this in many sim leagues and this was a fun and great process. (Example: Gasol requests max, I reply with reasons why I believe he deserves the contract I am offering, It is up to the agent to determine whether the player will accept, negotiate or decline the offer.) If no resolution is reached, the player then becomes a Restricted Free Agent where the previous team owns his rights (this happens after the rookie contract). Where said team can match any offer if they so choose, (Example, Gasol and Wolves havent come to an agreement, So team lets him explore free agency, he signs an offer sheet with Team B for 5 years 60 Million, It is then on the Wolves to decide to match, or to release his rights so he may sign the contract.) Trade committe should be 3 playoff teams and 3 lotto from last season this way no one is vetoing a trade to not let another team get better or somethig and also changes the meme to annually. I agree wit the amnesty also. But a penalty should be paid so that not everyone just does it bc you have to live with a contract you have. If you gave a bad contract it's your fault |
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Post by somerandomguy on May 15, 2014 5:18:14 GMT
I say absolutely no to trade committees, league has worked fine without them and Bundy along with most GM's around here can tell a bad trade from a horrible one
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Post by somerandomguy on May 15, 2014 5:21:22 GMT
also team relocation could get messy and GM's sometimes wants to pick their fav teams, what if some new GM is a huge Laker fan is see's the LA Lakers called the Anaheim ______
generally, it's just better to keep a team where there suppose to be and there's no real gain moving teams around.
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Post by Posting&Toasting on May 15, 2014 5:25:31 GMT
i would be okay with in increase in the salary cap.. isn't the NBA at like 58M?
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shorty
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Post by shorty on May 15, 2014 6:16:01 GMT
i would be okay with in increase in the salary cap.. isn't the NBA at like 58M? There is no inflation in this league however, and so really an increase in the hard cap isn't necessary if it's only because the NBA IRL is doing it. I would be open to an increase in the hard cap, but have a luxury tax on any increase tho. |
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Post by malice on May 15, 2014 6:52:27 GMT
I don't want to come across as a nay-sayer on everything - but what's the problem in only having enough room for two max contracts plus some not-so-max guys?
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shorty
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Post by shorty on May 15, 2014 7:11:51 GMT
Yeah I tend to agree with that^. Teams IRL can really only afford 2 and a half star max contract players as well, and you don't want a team to potentially grab like 5 max players.
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Post by somerandomguy on May 15, 2014 8:36:17 GMT
they are probably going to raise the cap this offseason to 60 something mil (atleast, that's what "cap" experts think)
it's going to be a huge increase because of how the NBA's CBA was set up, the past few seasons didn't really grow despite the NBA gaining more revenue (or something like that, I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to the CBA and cap rising) this offseason is suppose to account for the growth the leagues made since the new CBA was signed.
Not sure why I'm bringing this up, maybe just to show that not everything we discuss here needs to happen immediately. Somethings like the hard cap/tax etc can be postponed until we get a clearer picture of the leagues landscape.
This next FA is really going to change the league and the money max players are paid, you'll see LeBron's/Melo's/Amare's salary rise along with a good handful of players looking for their 2nd or 3rd contracts. We're starting to exit the wave of late 90's players who were great and entering the early (though not so early) 2000 players who will be impacting the league alot more then when on their previous contracts if they haven't already.
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Post by somerandomguy on May 15, 2014 9:07:01 GMT
actually, that little mindless post I just made gave me an idea
the current cap is 53,150,000 correct? What we could do is keep the salary cap the same, implement a luxury tax and just do whatever with the hard cap. Then in a couple seasons we can raise the cap a certain large amount, say 2-3 million. This appeases both sides I think, those that wouldn't want teams assembling a big 3 or whatever because the large cap and those that want a raise in salary cap.
It's also worth noting that this helps teams that maybe reach the tax/hard cap in later years because of the spike, say the tax is at 66 million this coming season, a team paying 66 mil in salary might go to 69 millon in salary and assuming they have 5 million in expiring (61 million) that team could use their MLE and LLE that season as well as a draft pick or two.
We decide which year the spike happens based on upcoming FA's, it makes plenty of sense to spike it on a year like this because no one is making a big 3 of Hoford/Noah and Nash and going to the finals this year without a ton of depth supporting them. So the next shit FA should be when the spike happens. Just need to figure out when that's likely to happen.
I'm just spit balling though, if you guys have a better idea then go for it.
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