Raise in hard cap?

[somerandomguy]

the current hard cap is 82 million, atm there are 5 teams paying out 80 million or more in salary and FA hasn't been finished yet there is still one team that could go over that 80 million mark if they use their MLE (Jazz).

Do you think there should be a raise in hard cap? If so, how much should the hard cap be? And when should it be implemented?

[somerandomguy]

forgot LAL got rid of ford, so it's actually 4 teams, but they were once over the HC

[malice]

Hold a sec...
Not sure there's been enough discussion to even warrant a vote - but that'd be up to the Prez to decide I guess - and a proposal should be put forward, with a "yes/no" voting option, not offering a third option that hasn't even been discussed. I think it's a bit knee-jerk to see that some teams are going to go over HC, and decide to change the hardcap because of that.

(wow... I *am* turning into the "no" guy)

[shorty]

I suppose we can allow discussion here. I just ask that people update their votes if they change their minds. We can count both "No" options as No's. A no is a no regardless of what it is.

[malice]

May 16, 2014 4:52:31 GMT shorty said:

I suppose we can allow discussion here. I just ask that people update their votes if they change their minds. We can count both "No" options as No's. A no is a no regardless of what it is.

I think we're going to move ahead with discussion... and vote later.

[crazyguy2010]

I voted no stay the same only like 4 teams have gone over HC since the league moved to his site which like 2 seasons or so why raise it?

[malice]

From my perspective, I don't want the HC to change. Teams shouldn't be able to sign around 2.5 elite players... as there simply aren't that many elite level guys in the league. It SHOULD be a challenge to construct a championship caliber team, and it SHOULD involve a bit of luck (ie. injuries - just ask shorty/me for the last two seasons!). It shouldn't merely come down to who can get the biggest number of the best players to sign on the virtual dotted line.

Inevitably, someone's going to win it. And they're going to win it within the confines of what we have already (and some teams are doing so WELL BELOW the hard cap). I prefer it to be a bit of a challenge to construct a team under the HC.

[itnas123]

no change to the hard cap..... it would make teams to good and too easy to build championship teams.

[somerandomguy]

I don't see how raising the hard cap would encourages "superteams", I would argue that the teams paying alot of money right now are paying it because the salaries in the league right now are starting to grow too much.

You can say that the Heat and Magic are contenders. The Pistons,Bucks,Spurs and Lakers (who were once over) aren't really contenders, I think those teams point towards the inflation in the league.

[itnas123]

May 16, 2014 6:45:10 GMT somerandomguy said:

I don't see how raising the hard cap would encourages "superteams", I would argue that the teams paying alot of money right now are paying it because the salaries in the league right now are starting to grow too much.

You can say that the Heat and Magic are contenders. The Pistons,Bucks,Spurs and Lakers (who were once over) aren't really contenders, I think those teams point towards the inflation in the league.

O.K I see what you mean but why raise the cap.... why not lower the amount of a max contract or increase it more to discourage a multiple use of max contracts?

[somerandomguy]

well maxes are decided based on salary cap, I'm also not too much in favor of lowering them because I prefer sim leagues to be a little bit realistic and going to the players asking for a decrease in the max probably wouldn't be smart irl.

I think spending needs to be encouraged not discouraged, setting limits on people discourages them and could always lead them to a league that allows a little more freedom, of course, you don't want to do anything too drastic or the leagues in chaos, I don't think raising the hard cap by 3 million (same number as the salary cap that I would propose) is too drastic and I also don't see how superteams could be made by such a small increase.

I have already detailed how you can make superteams under the salary cap today in the CBA thread, hell you could make a superteam whether your cap is 30 million or 90 million. Typically for this league though, that usually isn't a problem because FA's can sometimes be so dull and teams don't have the opportunity to just sign 3 big name FA's and go straight to the conference finals or better. So you have to either do it via the draft and be extremely lucky or do it via trade which means your either an amazing GM or somethings clearly wrong with the league that needs fixing.

The proposal isn't for teams to just sign big name FA's, it's more so for teams with max players that they were "forced into" because of the market and their desire not to lose that player. That goes for both the salary cap and the hard cap.

[itnas123]

May 16, 2014 7:02:05 GMT somerandomguy said:

well maxes are decided based on salary cap, I'm also not too much in favor of lowering them because I prefer sim leagues to be a little bit realistic and going to the players asking for a decrease in the max probably wouldn't be smart irl.

I think spending needs to be encouraged not discouraged, setting limits on people discourages them and could always lead them to a league that allows a little more freedom, of course, you don't want to do anything too drastic or the leagues in chaos, I don't think raising the hard cap by 3 million (same number as the salary cap that I would propose) is too drastic and I also don't see how superteams could be made by such a small increase.

I have already detailed how you can make superteams under the salary cap today in the CBA thread, hell you could make a superteam whether your cap is 30 million or 90 million. Typically for this league though, that usually isn't a problem because FA's can sometimes be so dull and teams don't have the opportunity to just sign 3 big name FA's and go straight to the conference finals or better. So you have to either do it via the draft and be extremely lucky or do it via trade which means your either an amazing GM or somethings clearly wrong with the league that needs fixing.

The proposal isn't for teams to just sign big name FA's, it's more so for teams with max players that they were "forced into" because of the market and their desire not to lose that player. That goes for both the salary cap and the hard cap.

o.K thanks for the info and do see that as all true. The reason I said an increase in max is to basically potentially limit it to signings only as Melo, Lebron, KD..... and others and second guess throwing max contracts to others but either way like you said it wouldn't matter. 

[malice]

I STILL don't see the problem with making teams make hard decisions about their personnel...

[malice]

This is the big one, and bundy has it on the table currently. I think that it's FINE the way it is... but if (and that's neither an acknowledgment that we should, or that we will!) we were to ask for a minor raise - as you suggest - we should also ask for a freeze on salary increases... as a rise in salaries would negate any benefit gained.

[celticfan]

I think a slight rise to 85 million is reasonable. It would give teams that are close to the hard cap a little more breathing room.

[mrclubz]

I don't think the hc should be raised. There's only a few teams going over and they just need to learn out how to budget. I mean I'm almost over but my team is fine I have enough players, content with the players I have. I'm pretty sure a lot of other people feel other GMs feel the same way. bloop found his way to get under before, shorty also, getbeard 82mil is fine. There's always away to get under the hard cap.

[malice]

Yup, bigger than the HC is trying to get a freeze on the salary structure.

[bloop]

If Baron Davis can get moved, anything is possible

[SuperMaor23]

YES YES YES

Given the way free agency works we need to raise the hard cap by at least 6-7 Million if not by 10

[shorty]

I'm fine with the HC the way it is. The current HC allows for teams to still field together star studded teams, but they'll just need to be creative (and perhaps a little lucky) with the contracts they dish out, and how they are going to field depth. It's a challenge, but not an insurmountable one with things the way they are now.

[swish]

I haven't been in this league that long but here's my initial thoughts:

Support
We raise HC by <$5-6mil; I feel like there will be a lot bigger contracts within the next few years with better free agents. If there is a HC rise, I believe in implementing a luxury tax at around 75-80 mil with a decent cash penalty to discourage cutting it close with the more relaxed Hard Cap. I think a luxury tax in this case will also be useful as it would make GMs think twice about claiming bigger salaries off the waiver wire and bailing other teams out, which I understand but am not a big fan of.

[shorty]

nbadsl.proboards.com/thread/1400/luxury-tax?page=1&scrollTo=35703

Check out my proposal there.

[malice]

I'm opposed. I think the HC is fine as is... regardless of the luxury tax suggestion.

[somerandomguy]

I'm going to lean off raising the HC and propose we have something in the CBA saying the HC should be raised in a certain situation like if a number of teams reaches a certain cap figure in the next few years, leagues combined payroll goes up a certain amount etc. Or we could have an opt out in the CBA if the HC does end up being too tight in the future.

Whether you want to believe it or not, salaries are going up, happens in every league

[shorty]

Gonna put up a poll now.

[malice]

May 17, 2014 1:32:14 GMT somerandomguy said:

I'm going to lean off raising the HC and propose we have something in the CBA saying the HC should be raised in a certain situation like if a number of teams reaches a certain cap figure in the next few years, leagues combined payroll goes up a certain amount etc. Or we could have an opt out in the CBA if the HC does end up being too tight in the future.

Whether you want to believe it or not, salaries are going up, happens in every league

Other than within the natural increase of players going further down their contract, and naturally increasing as their years increase... that's not really true.  It's also leaning towards the ad hominem rather than based on fact.  There's been one increase in the salary structure in this league.
Sure: on some players, salaries increase.  But on others who are getting older, starting their decline, salaries decrease.  I'm guessing that it's natural for someone to *feel* that player salaries are rising given where we are in the league's progression.  The guys who are older superstars now are at the end of significant pay structures... but that will abate as they continue to age.  As pointed out very early on (by shorty - I think) at the moment a team can afford around 2.5 superstars, or something of that ilk.  That's reasonable.

[somerandomguy]

again, that superstar thing doesn't really change unless you jack the cap up to something ridiculous like 80 million, I will have to copy & paste my argument against that. Because I feel like it keeps getting overlooked

"And for the record, you can actually get a big 3 with this current cap (and I know this is destroying the idea I had earlier, but I'm not loyal to that idea) I could wipe out most if not all of my salary, still use my 1st and get a big 3 if I really wanted to. LeBron along with Bosh, Wade and Melo would be close to 16 million first year, 16 x 3 = 48 million. Say you also get the #1 pick (draft pick isn't even needed really, but just to add more to the example)which is about 2.9 million that's around 50 million in salary."

Salaries are going to increase more after next FA, reason your not seeing it now is because we haven't really had a good FA were there's a good number of max deals, next season will be different. Off the top of my head there's atleast 6 max players and there are also certain players that will be near max. Those teams will start seeing an increase in salaries with their max players, especially if they will have or already have 2/3 max or near max players. Making it difficult for those teams to manage their salaries.

[malice]

I'm not changing my 'no' vote on this... but if the increase was MINIMAL, it wouldn't kill me (I think I've been a bit inflexible in response to this).

[shorty]

May 17, 2014 2:08:58 GMT somerandomguy said:

again, that superstar thing doesn't really change unless you jack the cap up to something ridiculous like 80 million, I will have to copy & paste my argument against that. Because I feel like it keeps getting overlooked

"And for the record, you can actually get a big 3 with this current cap (and I know this is destroying the idea I had earlier, but I'm not loyal to that idea) I could wipe out most if not all of my salary, still use my 1st and get a big 3 if I really wanted to. LeBron along with Bosh, Wade and Melo would be close to 16 million first year, 16 x 3 = 48 million. Say you also get the #1 pick (draft pick isn't even needed really, but just to add more to the example)which is about 2.9 million that's around 50 million in salary."

Salaries are going to increase more after next FA, reason your not seeing it now is because we haven't really had a good FA were there's a good number of max deals, next season will be different. Off the top of my head there's atleast 6 max players and there are also certain players that will be near max. Those teams will start seeing an increase in salaries with their max players, especially if they will have or already have 2/3 max or near max players. Making it difficult for those teams to manage their salaries.

Wouldn't the salaries eventually work themselves out tho? I mean, bigger salaries for some players would mean smaller salaries for others, and then we'll have poor FAs to even out the big spending ones. This last offseason didn't see a lot of salary get used for examples. I could be missing the big picture here so if I'm wrong on that, feel free to point it out.

[BrazilianDude]

I vote no. From what I've seen salaries are normally regulated as rookie deal then around 10 mil then Max if they deserve it. Knowing that it is not hard to predict your salaries for the next few years. This forces gm to use strategy to build a contending team. A team that has a max player a few high caliber rookies And a solid through out is a team poised to make a run. Rasing the cap would make it easier to strategize less and overpay players